surfacespread + trillion proxies = i need help

[ichi.one]

i need to make a large landscape with grass hills, something like this :

http://www.japan-hopper.com/wp-content/photos/i_aso03.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/175648565_d4da22743e_b.jpg

i've used spreadscape for the landscape
and i've made a 1x1m 'grassplane' (kept it as simple as possible)
made it a vrayproxy and dropped it in surfacespread....

now here comes the problem :big_boss:
my landscape is 600mx600m (yip i need it this big)
so if i cover this with my 1m grass
i need something like a trillion proxy clones :laugh3:
But i notice that to keep the file workable 30000 to 50000 clones is really the limit
Or i make my 1m grassplane bigger but then it doesn't follow the slope/curvation of the hills anymore, you know what i mean, you see the hills are made of big planes

so how do i make those hills with nice long grass ?
i can't use displacement (tried but the result wasn't good enough for the print) and just a texture is also not good enough
The final posterprint is 14mx4m and you need as viewer to get the feeling
you're standing in the long grass ;-)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/3186919733_0fb87eba78.jpg

Thumbnail : preview of my landscape

[stefan]

i would use hair, and proxy mixed

scatter some flowers plants etc. what you show in the example image from peter gurthrie arent trillions of proxies, these image is qzuite efficiently made.

the far away parts i would make with a mix from texture and some scattered parts, the close more detailed.

dont forget for proxies to raise the dynamic memory as much as possible,

cheers
stefan

[Tong]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_Detail

:good2:

[choppir]

Stefan what do you mean by this?


''these image is qzuite efficiently made.''

[stefan]

i mean they do not use trillions of proxies, there are less plants in the peter guthrie image than one might think on first sight

cheers
stefan

[ichi.one]

i would use hair, and proxy mixed

scatter some flowers plants etc. what you show in the example image from peter gurthrie arent trillions of proxies, these image is qzuite efficiently made.

the far away parts i would make with a mix from texture and some scattered parts, the close more detailed.

dont forget for proxies to raise the dynamic memory as much as possible,

cheers
stefan

Sorry no hairplug here
flowers and details in foreground etc... isn't the problem
even render the a big amount of clones isn't really the problem (takes more some preparing time),
it's working in c4d with a lot of proxies that's the problem
i've optimized as much as possible: only proxies in front of the cam, only proxy clones until a certain depth
not on the back side of the hills etc... and i still need a 500000 clones in surfacespread
which makes it totally unworkable :suicide2:

Tong what about LOD ?

[stefan]

yes, c4d itself is a bit of a bottle neck here. it hates too many objects.

try hiding as much for the interface as possible. vray can render much more polygons and objects than c4d can show in view port. so it might help to hide as many as possible in view port, but keep active for render. the export will need a bit, but if you are on 64 bit it will most likely render fine.

hope this helps, keep us updated will be interesting:-)

cheers
stefan

LOD is in view port. c4d then shows far way parametric objects less detailed, sadly it doesn't work on normal polygon c4d objects. best is hiding them from c4d view port i think

[Tong]

LOD is in view port. c4d then shows far way parametric objects less detailed, sadly it doesn't work on normal polygon c4d objects. best is hiding them from c4d view port i think
Well i was thinking about LOD in rendering, when closes objects is one proxy group that have more polygons, the far away less polygons group and far far away maybe texture or very simple mesh.

i think distributing can be set-up with expresso or selections with more that one surfacespread object.

also i remember surfacespread have some camera options for better spreading ;-)
http://www.c4dlounge.eu/forum/reviews/surfacespread/plaatje09.jpg

you can even make animation fly-trough with dynamic objects (low-high) replacement, we did it once, quite simple xpresso with camera distance to objects dependences.

[Antimatter]

I had to do a similar thing and i simply put a display tag on your mograph
with an LOD of 0.1 ... then your clones just appear when you render ;)

No slowdown with a massive amount of proxies.

[pyr]

...and split you scene into layers

[ichi.one]

yes, c4d itself is a bit of a bottle neck here. it hates too many objects.

try hiding as much for the interface as possible. vray can render much more polygons and objects than c4d can show in view port. so it might help to hide as many as possible in view port, but keep active for render. the export will need a bit, but if you are on 64 bit it will most likely render fine.

hope this helps, keep us updated will be interesting:-)

cheers
stefan

LOD is in view port. c4d then shows far way parametric objects less detailed, sadly it doesn't work on normal polygon c4d objects. best is hiding them from c4d view port i think


The c4d-preview is indeed the bottle neck
hiding from camera (in the obj-manager) doesn't help, surfacespread keeps generating the clones
the only thing that helps is disable surfacespread in the obj-manager
Rendering 2.250.000 is absolutely no problem (it only takes 26min preparing)
but the actual IR/LC + rendering takes 2,5min for a 1200pixel width preview




Well i was thinking about LOD in rendering, when closes objects is one proxy group that have more polygons, the far away less polygons group and far far away maybe texture or very simple mesh.

i think distributing can be set-up with expresso or selections with more that one surfacespread object.

also i remember surfacespread have some camera options for better spreading ;-)
http://www.c4dlounge.eu/forum/reviews/surfacespread/plaatje09.jpg

you can even make animation fly-trough with dynamic objects (low-high) replacement, we did it once, quite simple xpresso with camera distance to objects dependences.

I've used the surfacespread performance options
but it seems like it first generates in the memory the amount for the total landscape (±2,250,000)
and then deletes that ones that are not visible for the camera, on the backside of a hill etc...
so everytime you do something with surfacespread in the file or even open the file
i have to wait 12min. because it's generating the clones

I had to do a similar thing and i simply put a display tag on your mograph
with an LOD of 0.1 ... then your clones just appear when you render ;)

No slowdown with a massive amount of proxies.

do you put the LOD display tag on the proxie or on surfacespread
it doesn't seem to work here i've now put 0,001 in the tag but no difference

...and split you scene into layers

yes that's what i'm planning to do *
but for that i really need to cut the landscape in let's say 8 or 12 pieces
(the clients needs to approve the landscape first but he wants to see the grass on the landscape :help:)

* if using selections surfacespread still generates the total maxcount first

-----------------

are there any other tools i could use to cover the hills with grass ?

[Antimatter]

do you put the LOD display tag on the proxie or on surfacespread
it doesn't seem to work here i've now put 0,001 in the tag but no difference


I would not use Surface spread but Mograph ... then put the Display tag on the cloner object with LOD set to 0.0 or 0.001 ... it should work.

[c4d-Jack]

I would of course use SurfaceSPREAD :)

You can use grass models with different LOD, then apply a SurfaceSPREAD Distribution Override Tag to them and use the Performance Filter "Distance from camera" to let each kind of clones appear in a suitable distance from the render camera.
Actually, I haven't tried yet, but it should also work if you attach a Display Tag to the objects to be cloned.

To reduce the clone count in the editor, use the "Editor Weight" parameter of SurfaceSPREAD.

Look at some of the landscape renderings from forum user "holle". He uses SurfaceSPREAD, too. Of course, a 64 Bit machine with enough RAM is always recommended for landscape rendering.

Cheers,
Jack

[ichi.one]

I would of course use SurfaceSPREAD :)

You can use grass models with different LOD, then apply a SurfaceSPREAD Distribution Override Tag to them and use the Performance Filter "Distance from camera" to let each kind of clones appear in a suitable distance from the render camera.


the LOD of the grass is not the problem, it's the amount of copies/instances/proxies - boxes/clones needed
(not a surfacespread bug/issue but a c4d maxon problem)

I would of course use SurfaceSPREAD :)
Actually, I haven't tried yet, but it should also work if you attach a Display Tag to the objects to be cloned.


No the LOD displaytag doesn't help,
at least i don't notice any differences


To reduce the clone count in the editor, use the "Editor Weight" parameter of SurfaceSPREAD.


Yes a that's a good option to make the file more workable, but then you don't see/know
if the surface is really covered with clones or if there are still gaps

A good option could be: 'cover surface totally' so you're sure there are no gaps


Look at some of the landscape renderings from forum user "holle". He uses SurfaceSPREAD, too. Of course, a 64 Bit machine with enough RAM is always recommended for landscape rendering.

Cheers,
Jack

i work on a 12 gigaRam machine in 64bit

i know 'Holle' uses surfacespread and does wonderfull things with it
but i don't think he has a file with 3 grass versions (3 different LOD) and each with a 130000 clones
rendered at 24000pixels = 14m long print, split in 2 rendercamera's :soldier_girl:

from my experience when working with proxies the preview of the amount of clone boxes (+50000) in the editor is much slower than working with render-instances
when making a 100000 clones with a proxy in surfacespread: C4D is unworkable, every move takes a few minutes
When dropping the original grassobject in surfacespread and working with renderinstances (= no vray but c4d render) you have a still workable file but no vray rendering

[BerTiN03]

I second you ichi.one.

I had lot of pain working with the file of this pictures.

I used one SurfaceSPREAD with 100000 clones for massive long grass covering (proxy of a circular part of long grass), applied on the landscape without the sides of it, and another one SurfaceSPREAD with 70000 proxy of a smaller one (less hair generated mesh), to have a more precise difinition of the sides of the landscape. (to avoid grass covering roads, etc..)

The only way I had to work was to make a specific working Take, desactivating the SurefaceSPREAD, and specific Takes for the render, activating it.

I used the SurfaceSPREAD and proxys options to minimalize the viewport slowless impact, but nothing did... Like you say, as soon as I activated the SurfaceSPREAD, it was exactly like It was calculating all the proxys, even with performance filters activated, and it was just impossible to work with them activated.