XRef Crash

[bentreality]

XREFs problems w crash ....

i have a large furniture library (80mb) which uses about 100 materials.

first idea was to have everything in 1 file and then use the xref option to switch on/off certain objects. but then i dont know if it uses a lot of memory to work like that because for 2 different objects you need to have 2 times the same large xref'ed file, just switching on/off the different objects.

second idea was to make a xref_file just for the materials. then setup different xref files for the individual furniture objects. in those files i use the materials from the xref file so that i can change the materials for all furniture objects easily using just the materials master file.

ah ... just check this file ... it also demonstrates a nice CRASH !

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=E0DNPFM9

(disabling all plugins didnt help, so the cause is not some other plug.)

[Tong]

why you don`t use lib4d + xpresso?

[bentreality]

why you don`t use lib4d + xpresso?

...... can you explain ?

[Tong]

like here
http://www.c4dexchange.com/en/detail.aspx?did=180

[bentreality]

like here
http://www.c4dexchange.com/en/detail.aspx?did=180

i know what lib4d files are, but not how to make them myself or how to work w them.
but i think lib4d objects are just copied into the file... that is not working for me.

i have a large object library with many elements that have to be placed in different masterfiles.
i want to be able to change an element and have it updated in all the masters.
copy paste is a pain because of the duplicate materials problem and other manual work it needs then.

anyway... i just wanted to report this bug / crash here... hope it can be solved in the next update.

[bentreality]

hm ... can u confirm this crash / bug ?

[stefan]

xrefs behave and export sometimes strangely in c4d. i would strongly recommend transforming them to normal objects before render ( just press "C" to convert, or use current state of object to have a converted copy) if you encounter any problem.

from pure vray side and export they should behave as normal objects, but more save to convert them really to normal objects for render. i fear the xrefs (which also behave sometimes weird in c4d for some) have something in some situations.

anyway i tested a lot on the xrefs, if you send me a file i will be happy to test yours also, to see if any unusual happen from vray side.

cheers
stefan

p.s and if possible also send em a "duplicate material example" please , i am absolute unable to recreate that in any of ma scenes.

[bentreality]

the xref crash file is posted above ...

but here again everything together, sorry i mix up threads :

xref bug / crash ---> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=E0DNPFM9

remove duplicates bug ---> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PSXCX2CO

[stefan]

the first file says it is not available

cheers
stefan

----------

ok thanks for the duplicate file. there i found one thing fast:

i have tested and see a reason, it seems that cienma4d doesnt "see" the texture in diffuse slot when you have set this to multiply instead of normal.

i never use this, so i guess thats why we never had this.

i will send this file to daniele to check and see if we can find a solution to tell c4d there is a texture.

cheers
stefan

----------

for the xref file i see you have xref'ed even the materials, i am not sure this can be supported. if you load the materials in material manager it renders fine.

i converted simple the xrefed material file so they are in material manager and can be accessed by vray.

i will ask if that will be possible to support in future,but for now please have one copy of material in the file.(or convert at least the xref materials to be accessible to the engine)

or i also see the material xref is already as subxref in the other file, if you load it only once in the xref it also works fine

cheers
stefan

[edub]

Sorry - I don't have any answers or solutions to anything in this thread, but I'm REALLY INTERESTED in how you managed to reference materials from an xref into the geometry...

I have been wanting to test this workflow out as well, since I work with many xref files that all have the same material, and it would be fantastic if they could all be referenced from ONE file, and any updates made there would propagate into the various xrefs.

Is your example demonstrating that this, in fact, is not possible? - or have you managed to get this to work in other cases, and this specific example just doesn't work?

Any info appreciated ;)

[stefan]

the materials are in the xref,
he also loaded the xrefs with material in the object xref.

savest is that the material should be in material manager loaded, this ensures vray has the access to the material at the correct timing. as said above the way maxon made the xrefs have some "unusual" ways (yet).

cheers
stefan

[bentreality]

Sorry - I don't have any answers or solutions to anything in this thread, but I'm REALLY INTERESTED in how you managed to reference materials from an xref into the geometry...

I have been wanting to test this workflow out as well, since I work with many xref files that all have the same material, and it would be fantastic if they could all be referenced from ONE file, and any updates made there would propagate into the various xrefs.

Is your example demonstrating that this, in fact, is not possible? - or have you managed to get this to work in other cases, and this specific example just doesn't work?

Any info appreciated ;)

you understood my intention! ;)
i do not want to have the materials in the master file ....

it is about changing a symbols color and have this updated in serveral master files !
if that doesnt work w xrefs, i have to change the material by hand in every master.
which makes changes a pain !

and no... i could not make this work, its my first try. but it would be a great timesaver!!

the materials are in the xref,
he also loaded the xrefs with material in the object xref.

savest is that the material should be in material manager loaded, this ensures vray has the access to the material at the correct timing. as said above the way maxon made the xrefs have some "unusual" ways (yet).

cheers
stefan

hope u understand why i dont want to load the materials in the master!
i need the xrefs to the materials in the object xref and in the master, too because i want to use the materials in both places.

[stefan]

"i do not want to have the materials in the master file ...."

at the moment this is currently needed to be in the file to work with the external renderengine.

i can put to wish list, but this might be not easy. so i cant tell if we can add.

stefan

[bentreality]

"i do not want to have the materials in the master file ...."

at the moment this is currently needed to be in the file to work with the external renderengine.

i can put to wish list, but this might be not easy. so i cant tell if we can add.

stefan

in advanced render this setup works, I just checked ! ... maybe its just a small bug in vray (I hope)

but easy i dont want to be negative or so...
i just wanted to show you the "problem"... to make vray4c4d better :)

i hope you see how much this could improve the workflow in certain cases
so yes on the list for christmas presents, plz :D

[stefan]

advanced render is the internal engine,this is much easier as all is custom made for it. vray is an external, please keep that in mind.
what Renato and Daniel made is already quiet amazing in integration level. but certain limits are there from technical side of integration. this is always for an external engine.

as said i put on wish list and we will see if we can get that out of the external xref file.

cheers
stefan

[bentreality]

actually i dont share your opinion, sorry...
as i do a lot of programming myself this could also be a plan simple bug. nobody's perfect.

and the effect of this is huge.... its one of the things that make it a pain to work w c4d+vray professionally.
for example visuals of retail shops.... i have one file per shop and i need to put all the shopfitting elements into everyone of these files. if i improve or change the the shopfitting elements i must update all project files. the materials get messed up because of the double material problem. and its almost impossible to keep everything tidy and up to date. but not only in this case...
its generally not possible to use/build up a library of objects and conviniently use them in different projects. you always have to put all the things in the actual project file which is super-annoying. -- and cost a LOT of time
i vote for the buglist instead of the wishlist :)
if 3d work on macs or w c4dvray should get more popular (compared to 3ds max) things like this must work.
this is about how u can organize all of your work better. work faster.
i dont mean to be rude... its amazing where vrayc4d is already but plz make it also possible to work more efficient. peace!

[stefan]

well it is like that,
if you dont believe me i cant help;-)

the connection vray and c4d is very complex, and by far not so easy as you might think. specially due to all the native shader support and back and forth info between both that goes on.

we work on a totally new vray native workflow, as for exactly such reasons , that will over come such things and bring vrscene native vray workflows, optionally to current.

you can use xfrefs, but you need the materials in scene or in direct xref, not again referenced. this is a fact at the moment. believe me.

cheers
stefan

[bentreality]

sorry I let out my frustration w this...
i could save a s...load of work if this "simple" thing would work.

i just hope you understand that things like this are important.
they help to save a lot of time. I wasnt sure w your last answer .)

the options we have right now are all no good sadly.
the cool thing w the materials xref file is that you can change a lot of elements/objects (different xrefs) with almost no work. for example: u got 10 different shelves/shelve types which all use the same materials. so if u want to change a material u could easily do this in one file instead of modifying all xrefs which leads to chaos if u got a large library.

anyway. i think you understood the thinking.
didnt want to sound arrogant. keep up the work!!

[stefan]

yes i understand your thinking, and xrefing materials inside another xref is for sure an intelligent trick for such fast material exchanges and similar things.

as said above, we do not sleep(well a bit at night;-), and see on all parts surface and core how to bring more and more into the vray future.

at the moment we can support only normal xrefing support for objects, not this special case.

cheers
stefan

[bentreality]

is this topic adressed in 1.255?